Do you think that wing chun punch can be improved? Look at the this part of chat discussion with a friend of mine who also trains Yiquan :
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: I am not an expert on Wing Chun … the question is: how much can you improve it, so that it is still Wing Chun 
?
faik bilalovic says: thats what I thought
faik bilalovic says: it can be imroved, but then something must be left out
faik bilalovic says: for example chi-sao and/or kiu-sao where the contact is needed
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: From the limited knowledge I have about WCK, I already know completely different purposes of chi-sao, depending on which style you are looking at, e.g. Leung Ting vs. Wong Shun Leung.
faik bilalovic says: I disagree with you. They all have the same principle, to feel what the opponent does/will do
faik bilalovic says: I already practiced chi-sao putting “straight lines” in many movements, but then again it was “contact” chi-sao
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: Not in Wong Shun Leung style … you don’t try to feel and react, it’s more a structure test, like our tui shou.
faik bilalovic says: ok, really are you sure about this?
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: Well, at least the German guys under Philipp Bayer 
faik bilalovic says: I must have been wrong then, because I think I saw a video of Wong Shun Leung doing chi-sao and talking about “redirecting” purpose
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: They do not absorb or yield … they simply try to punch from every position
faik bilalovic says:
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: Also their bong sao is not an arm that is bent by the excessive force of the opponent; it’s an elbow clearing the centre line because your hand is tied up.
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: Maybe I can find you a video of those guys … let me see
faik bilalovic says: Hm, that would be nice
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: http://www.wongshunleung.com/
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: One has to register 
faik bilalovic says: wait
faik bilalovic says: you mean to see the videos
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: Yes, only for the multimedia stuff
faik bilalovic says: I’ve seen the video just now!
faik bilalovic says: IT has the elements of pushing kind of force and redirecting
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: It should be redirecting like a wedge, not like taijiquan
faik bilalovic says: IT looks very stiff of course, but that again is nothing different from our tu-shou
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: Basically punching the other arm out of the way by superior structure and positioning.
faik bilalovic says: yes
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: That’s what Leung Ting people always criticise about it
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: Something nice for your WCK collection
faik bilalovic says: Why do they use such chi-sao again? You can do it without it too
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: And you can do it without forms, too
faik bilalovic says: yes, there are some wing chun styles without forms
faik bilalovic says: I know about that:)
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: Really ?
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: “Lazy wing chun” ?
faik bilalovic says: yes, I heard it from a friend of mine
faik bilalovic says: But you can practice chi-sao in different ways of course
faik bilalovic says: Lets go back to our original question
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: I would improve it by moving more of my body … but that’s no longer WCK.
faik bilalovic says: Well, I tried that, it looks like a wing chun/boxing punch. its not totally moving out as we do, but very similar
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: Also, keeping your weight on the rear leg does not necessarily help.
faik bilalovic says: you can keep there before you want to go forward
faik bilalovic says: Like we do in “extensions”
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: Yeah.
faik bilalovic says: and then “explode” forward
faik bilalovic says: I tried that with some wing chun punches
faik bilalovic says: it worked well
faik bilalovic says: of course your weight is much more forward and it can be quite troublesome to someone who can’t go out of that position fast. Thats because someone can pull you out and you can fall down. But this again is only in demonstrations. (pulling your punched arm)
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: But are you not supposed to keep or even pull your shoulder back in Wing Chun?
faik bilalovic says: yep
faik bilalovic says: you shoulder should be fixed
faik bilalovic says: but you can go forward and then “pull” it back to the same place
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=ipfAK224798
faik bilalovic says: Look at his right shoulder going “very little” forward when he wants to extend his arm from the elbow (in the begining of the video)
faik bilalovic says: BTW, I saw this clip long time ago
faik bilalovic says: Now, how can we do the punch without pushing? thats the question? I think I have a theory about that too
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: I would be surprised if not
faik bilalovic says: Look carefully at 46 to 48 sec of video
faik bilalovic says: just wait 48, 49 sec of the video
faik bilalovic says: that’s right, exactly there
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: It clearly came forward, especially easy to see from this angle.
faik bilalovic says: yes, and he was talking that a shoulder goes backward
faik bilalovic says: that’s not true!
faik bilalovic says: you clearly can see that a shoulder goes for a little ms forward and then backward
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: Yes, you can see where the elbow is compared to the picture frame on the wall.
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: Wishful thinking from his part, I would say
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: Well, the body does what is natural
faik bilalovic says: He is impostor( is this correct written) 
We just found that he lies!!
Throatwobbler Mangrove says:
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: (I’d still rather not tell him in person 
)
faik bilalovic says:
faik bilalovic says: sure not! (Wasn’t me)
faik bilalovic says: Now, if we think that this punch is the same as ours
faik bilalovic says: on basis that you have to support yourself when punching
[faik bilalovic says: like elbow supports itself with a shoulder which has to be fixed and the body, what do you think, is not that the same as our punch then?
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: Yep, at least in principle.
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: Ours is universal!
faik bilalovic says: what do you mean universal?
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: Beyond styles, based on universal principles.
faik bilalovic says: Well, its the same in wing chun you can punch uppercuts and other blows based on the same principle
faik bilalovic says: what is the difference?
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: But is it true whole body motion in wing chun?
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: Does the whole body extend along the power line?
faik bilalovic says: well, Emin demonstrate that this was the (elbow, shoulder, spine and the feet) which are punching.
faik bilalovic says: of course, there is also acceleration a very good part of it
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: But still most of the distance is covered by the arm itself. And the hip and the waist don’t contribute much.
faik bilalovic says: that’s true from our point of view (yiquan), but we should see it from a neutral point. How do we know that this is not a powerful punch? The only way to find out is to find someone who can demonstrate both punches.
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: But why should it be more powerful without waist and hips ? But you are right, the only true way would be to measure both punches executed by the same subject.
faik bilalovic says: I agree totally with you. But he said if you put your shoulder forward you’ll loose that power
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: Does he say why?
faik bilalovic says: and if you punch like a boxer you’ll punch not with whole body
faik bilalovic says: no he doesn’t
faik bilalovic says: he say that punching like a boxer you use 40-60% of your bodyweight if ( I hope this was what he said in that video)
faik bilalovic says: but that again is not correct
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: Not at all
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: He should read Jack Dempsey’s book
faik bilalovic says: Well, Kernschpehct did that and this friend of mine
faik bilalovic says: he already said something about that
faik bilalovic says: its the “almost” the same as wing chun punch
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: Kernspecht is citing very selectively … he just takes what fits his purpose … vertical fist and power line
faik bilalovic says: did he ever said why is that so?
faik bilalovic says: I think I have his book. did you read that?
faik bilalovic says: never mind
faik bilalovic says: Lets go back to our wing chun/yiquan punch
faik bilalovic says: I found out that if we extend and move our upper body a little forward as in extension, and use all that “power line” and other stuff, I think we can punch powerful too. The only thing is to be careful not to push
faik bilalovic says: I already tried that kind of punch on the bag in my basement
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: It is also a matter of timing. If you punch at the right moment, and explosively enough, no one will pull you
faik bilalovic says: Thats ok
faik bilalovic says: I know that,
faik bilalovic says: but how about not pushing forward?
faik bilalovic says: imagine this :
faik bilalovic says: a person who is 120 kg comes to you with a great speed and want to punch
faik bilalovic says: you are doing this kind of punch and you want to extend everything
faik bilalovic says: what if this extension is half away ( means you punched before you straightened your arm) forward?
faik bilalovic says: what do you think?
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: You straighten everything at the same time.
faik bilalovic says: yeah I know that, but if the guy is very big its going to be like a “crash”
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: If the distance is too short, your leverage is bad, because your body has not “unfolded” yet. But that’s the same with every kind of blow.
faik bilalovic says: yes, but what can we do then?
faik bilalovic says: what do you think we can do if the distance is too short?
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: Use the elbow instead, or sidestep and hook
faik bilalovic says: well, that’s the problem, you have to use your “style” and do what you have to do
faik bilalovic says:
Throatwobbler Mangrove says: (nod)
faik bilalovic says: Ok, think more about that and give me some answers later. I have to go now! Thank you so much for talking!!
First, look at the video of Derren Brown who “predicts” the movements of some people on the street:
The cues could be such as this: you saw your opponent moves right before punch stepping forward with the left leg, or maybe just going back with his right leg and moving just slightly to the side, while the right arm and the shoulder also moved a little forward. Or perhaps the opponent was about to duck under your left jab by stepping to your left side of the body and then tried to launch the punch. There are so many cues that can help you “see” the punch coming and one page would not be enough to write all about them. The most important thing to understand which is common to all anticipated cues is a visual proprioception. I’ve found this definition of proprioception from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proprioception : “The unconscious perception of movement and spatial orientation arising from stimuli within the body itself. “ Visual proprioception : “ …is more directly related to the body schema and involves the subpersonal processing of visual information about environmental motion in the visual field.” (http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~gallaghr/gall&cole95.html).
To understand visual proprioception, first you have to ask yourself a question: Can I see my opponents’ moves and how can I react fast enough to escape, dodge and hit him first before he punches me? If you thought that the answer to this question was anticipation, I must say that you were wrong. It has nothing to with that; it’s just simple, a vision. Let me say something about the vision and how do people percept the objects in the environment. Visual information is delivered to the brain by the two pathways from the retina which is located on the back of the eyeball. These pathways are actually two systems of the brain which differently control our behaviour: focal vision and ambient vision.
Focal vision is a result of personal experience. It’s used for detecting and recognizing objects which are primarily in the center of our visual field. Focal vision is a conscious perception and it declines fast in dim of light. You are using your focal vision right now, when you read the sentences of this page.
Ambient (peripheral) vision is used to determine the location in space and orientation in the environment. It contributes to very fine control of movements without being aware of it. That means unconscious perception and it is not seriously degraded in the dim light conditions. That’s why you can drive a car in the night and do not need to slow down. (http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/pedestrian.html)
Most of us (martial art practitioners) do not appreciate the value of the ambient system. Many think that there must be something more then just eyes. Well, there is, but our visual information is extremely efficient if we know how to use it. If you can identify the environment and your visual field by using your peripheral vision, you’ll reaction will get better and you’ll be better in movement prediction. There are studies which indicate that ambient vision is used for movement control and is not influenced (as focal vision) by the movement of surrounding objects (http://psyche.cs.monash.edu.au/v5/psyche-5-18-bridgeman.html).
Scientists believe that optic (or optical) flow is one important part of ambient vision and movement control. (http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17428514). The optical flow (or optic flow) is the visual motion of the objects you see as you move in the space (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optic_flow). While other say that it takes approximately 200 ms for an individual to process visual information, I believe that you can process the visual information faster. Why would I say that?
There is one particular exercise in Yiquan which teaches you how to use your ambient vision and the optical flow information faster and subconsciously. It’s quite hard to perform if you have never tried it before and I must to admit, it was kind of funny for me to start with. I did not know what to expect from it. My teacher told me that I have to “look” at the objects around me and to “concentrate” as if they were about to attack me. At the same time I had to move my eyes from one object to another as fast as possible, and try not to “focus” on the target. After some time doing all this, suddenly I felt so tired, and I felt extremely pain in my forehead. He told me that I should not be scared, it was just that I did not “use my eyes” before in this manner, and that it was just a matter of practice. I laughed at it and continued the exercise for some days after. Finally, after couple of days he explained me what was all about.
To put all this to the test, I went to a nearest boxer club in my town and tried to spar with someone there. I have never boxed before (btw. I was 33 years old then) and I was like: “what am I doing here, these guys train every day (or 3-4 times a week) and they going to kill me!” To my surprise, I would evade or block all of the attacks they’ve had and I was kind in “control”. Now, I do not say that I am a pro or a good boxer, but just the fact that I trained these yiquan vision proprioception skills for maybe 2 months before I went there, says something about this kind of training. Something has influenced my reactions and movement predictions. I give a credit to yiquan and I think that this is true, because I got the same “explanation” from my other yiquan friends who learned the same skills. I don’t know, maybe we all are just as this guy Derren, good in making the trick happen, or what do you think?
What is tui shou? Why do various internal martial artists train this stuff and what is so good with that?
In this short article, I’ll try to investigate this kind of practice from the yiquan basis, because this relatively young internal martial art explains the new way of training which many other don’t know about or do not want to acknowledge. Lets first find out what is Tui-Shou and how does it work.
Tui Shou means “pushing hands” and in short works like this: two people stand in front of each other and practice some application techniques while maintaining the contact with their forearms. Students learn how to undo a person’s natural instinct to resist force with force, teaching the body to yield to force and redirect it… IT also teaches you how to generate, coordinate and deliver power to another and also how to effectively neutralize incoming forces in a relatively safe environment. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pushing_hands) .
Our (yiquan) approach is slightly different. We use tui-shou to learn mechanics, both internal and external. With the internal mechanics we emphasize how all the muscles of the body coordinate their contraction with the others. An external mechanics stress how each part of the body (upper arm, forearm, torso, upper leg, etc.) moves in relation to the others.
Muscle coordination is the key to both internal and external mechanics. In the beginning one trains that one have to be strong at every possible point and angle of contact under maximal pressure, and be able to break the incoming line of force with the slightest movement and constantly maintain ones own line of force. But then realize that this makes one stiff as if he was wrestling and iron-wire. Then, after a while one have to give that up and relax there, still keeping his mechanical understanding and learns to explode immediately. But then again realize that the whole idea of tuishou makes one stop there, and develops the very bad habit of stopping to feel the force to react to it there when contact happens, instead of reacting to the opponents’ intention of making a contact (attack) already before the contact.
What I’ve found very beneficial with this kind of training was that I do not need to concentrate anymore on how will my opponent attacks. This exercise opened my mind and made me focused more on the opponent not me.
The essence of this exercise is not the result, but the process of learning in which one remains actively engaged all the time. That means that you should not view it from the single perspective (from your own point of view), because then you’ll be trapped in a riggid mindset unaware of information which have been presented to you.
Please, let me know what have you experienced while performing this simple mind/body exercise.
Hi! Here’s the new video of the month Enjoy!
Have you been asking yourself that question? Did you ever thought about the course of action or what happens with your body when you try to attain this kind of movement? So far I haven’t find any good explanation, or they would be such as: “You know, that’s when your limbs move or participate in coordinated manner!” Well, tell me then how do you do that?, or better “Show me that!”
It’s very easy to describe fluid movement verbally, but when it comes to demonstrations very few can express that physically and with reasonably explanations. So, I won’t write too much about the theory here, because it doesn’t make sense to anybody who still thinks like: Well, how do you do that?! Instead, I’ll try in my next video to show you that “Fluid movement” and what the secret is.
Ps: The video is coming soon!
Hi again! After thoroughly thinking about the content of this blog, I’ve decided to make some changes. I will continue to write but at the same time I’ll share with you some of my martial art experience. Everything will be video captured on put it online. I am not going to reveal any martial art “secrets” or my personal success. I’ll just show you the basics of what I call “movement efficiency”. But first, here is a story that is told by my fellow student after 10 months of training Yiquan:
Ten month’s distance is not that overwhelming, taking into account that some schools of internal martial art would like you to spend ten years in zhanzhuang before teaching you how to move at all, but on the other hand it is probably a good idea to look back in order to see whether you have made any progress after almost one year of practice. In my case, those ten months did make a big difference, both for the way I use my body and the way I am looking on what I am doing.
Remember how glad I was that my newly learned relaxation skills had helped me to boost my zhanzhuang standing time? Well, the happiness did not last that long. Because if you really look at it, it is a strange way of measuring your progress. What was it I had achieved? I had managed to spend more time doing a particular exercise. So what? Imagine you were a professional boxer, and had just spent one week with the legendary Angelo Dundee in order to take your skills to a new level. Upon your return, your training partners ask you, whether you think you profited from your lessons in the way expected. Now, try to imagine the look on their faces if you answered something like “Yes, it was great, what Angelo taught me allows me to skip the ropes for ten minutes longer without taking a break!”
Of course I am exaggerating. I had learned a lot of useful things and gained important insights, and the increased standing time was an indicator of improved relaxation. I had not increased my anaerobic endurance, and I had not learned any special ways to cheat and make the exercise easier. Still, it was a weird way to look at the results. The goal is relaxation, in order to move effortlessly, hit harder and faster (from a martial point of view, of course it is generally desirable to minimize unwanted and useless tension). Not the exercise itself.
Many Yiquan practitioners are annoyed when you point out that the result of the exercise is important, not the exercise as such. They feel it is an insult to their intelligence to assume they took the exercises themselves too seriously. They are all only too familiar with the hackneyed “It’s the moon, not the finger pointing at it” metaphor. Still, Yiquan gets defined as a collection of certain exercises – not by beginners, but by high ranking instructors. If you looked up boxing in a dictionary, you will get something like: “the art of attack and defense with the fists practiced as a sport”. Wouldn’t it be weird if boxing was defined as rope skipping + heavy bag work + speed bag work + running + sparring?
A similar misconception surrounds the debate around the aim of the Second Course. The point is not that it is using different exercises than the “traditional” ones. The point is not that it introduces additional exercises for the students who have difficulties with specific points. Every teacher does that, no matter whether it’s the First, the Second, or a course of playing the piano. If a change in exercises mattered that much, we should probably be talking about the Fiftieth Course by now, since every student has his own exercises tailored to his needs and capabilities.
In a way, the desired result of Yiquan training can be described as the mastery of movement. Movement as such, “an sich”, not a particular way of moving. This is also why it is justified to claim that Yiquan “has no techniques”. Movement has a number of attributes that need to be grasped before it can be perfected. Among those are such concepts as the interplay of relaxation and tension, the cooperation of body parts, the instinctive reaction to changes in the environment etc. You can grasp those concepts mentally, but that is not sufficient. Each of those corresponds to a bodily sensation. Being completely relaxed feels a certain way, being extremely tense feels a certain way, moving along a straight line feels a certain way. Implementing the physical equivalent of the above mentioned concepts in your body is crucial for the attainment of the ultimate goal.
Zhanzhuang, shili, fali etc. do not teach you the required bodily states if you have not already experienced them. Zhanzhuang does not teach you relaxation, it requires it. If you have no idea what relaxation feels like, all you will develop in zhanzhuang is endurance, will power, and pain tolerance. Same for all the other “states” (Some people have objected to calling them states, but the above description should make clear what I am talking about. You need to experience what the correct realisation of each concept feels like in your body in its pure form, then you need to transfer that sensation to everything you do.) What the Second Course does, is that it lets you feel all the required ingredients for mastering movement, so that you learn to recognize and reproduce them. At the same time, you learn to unambiguously identify those building blocks of movement”. These ingredients need to be perfected and amalgamated into a new way of moving.
The nice thing about those states is that the occur in every movement, not just in a few exercises. So you can work on them practically all day long, in everything you do. This is not only an opportunity, it is a necessity. What ever you do in training, needs to be habit-forming. And what you are doing during 90% of your waking time has a much greater impact on your behaviour than those 10% of dedicated martial arts training. On the other hand, this also gives you a better chance to observe how you are gradually improving. You will eventually get better in everything you do.
You will notice that you are getting stronger. This is due to better body mechanics, but it is also due to changes in the muscles themselves. Depending on your state of training prior to taking up Yiquan, you might actually observe changes in your physique. You will notice that the parts of your body will start working together as a whole. That probably does not make a big difference for brushing your teeth, but it helps if you have to lift a heavy suitcase overhead into the luggage compartment. You will feel more “aligned”, for want of a better term.
You will also find out that your reflexes are improving. No, you cannot dodge bullets yet, but you might note a difference when you try to catch falling objects. Not consciously, that is, but automatically, in a blink of the eye. Maybe there is also an increased tendency to show off, because it has confidentially been admitted among fellow students that one seems to drop stuff a lot more often in the first place … Those little things might not mean much to someone who sets out to beat Mike Tyson, but it is actually very reassuring to feel that your way of moving is changing for good. There is constant progress, and at the same time it is very clear where the journey is going. One’s body mechanics are improving, and at the same time, one get’s an eye for judging the mechanics of other people.
That is the beauty of it: it is a continuous process, and you can always objectively verify whether you progress or not. You don’t have to be a believer, and you don’t have to trust promises. There is no delayed gratification, and you need not be afraid that you have just wasted many years, because there was no pot of gold buried at the end of the rainbow.
